Curse

Vinraith · Nov 20, 2007, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by MistressYichi

Which SV you talking about? I was refering to Sympathetic Visage, which does nothing to casters...

Guess I'm used to hearing it from the SS/SV nec lf 55...

Spoil Victor, which I expect is what the person you're quoting is referring to as well. Pesky overlapping abbreviations...

nugzta · Nov 20, 2007, 05:57 PM // 17:57

For the record, ranger does better interrupting than mesmer. The mesmer might have more faster/accurate interruption so their interrupt relies on reflex. While ranger has slower interruption but real rangers (not barrage nublets) do their interrupt by prediction and time calculation. This is because ranger interrupts are more spammable and almost cost nothing thanks to expertise. For PvE, BHA is the only interrupt anyone ever need with everyone attacking the same target (even better with minions) it means useless caster bosses.

Armor ignoring damage on mesmer? I mean seriously the majority of mesmer skills are highly conditional. Remove hex does this damage, remove enchanment does that damage, etc. Why bother if armor ignoring damage can also be done by necros without being conditional like SS.

darkdreamr · Nov 20, 2007, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chicken Ftw

You think empathy does more damage than SS? Yes, I believe a dslasher will out-DPS empathy. You ever hear of BHA? Too many people don't know what they're talking about.

1: Yes. It's also cheaper, recharges faster, and is nonelite. SS only shines in groups of 3 or more with a tank to hold them in place.

2: Really? Do you know the attack speed of melee enemies in HM? And you know how much empathy does per hit? And you realize that empathy is fire-and-forget, and can be put on multiple targets?

3: BHA, another elite. What if the arrow misses? I still think mesmer shutdown is more reliable.

All 3 of these things can be done by a mesmer on one skill bar. Believe it or not.

Badenstein · Nov 20, 2007, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Mesmers are the toughest class to play. To be an effective Mesmer, you really need to consider the area you will be playing in. Is it filled with Forest Minotaurs or Jade Scarabs? Gaile once said that some character classes are built more for PvP and others are better for PvE. And some Mesmer spells are great a low levels while others are only good at the high levels.

darkdreamr · Nov 20, 2007, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinraith

Why do people keep trying to compare SS and empathy? SS is an elite, of course it's better, but then you only get the one. This debate's focussed wrong anyway, not being a mesmer primary doesn't prevent you from bringing mesmer skills. The real question to my mind is why you'd bring fast casting over soul reaping for a hex caster. For interrupts fast casting is useful, sure, but for hexes isn't nearly infinite energy a lot more valuable?

Yes it is. Actually what I like about fast casting in pve is mantra of recovery, which (even after the nerf) is a huge increase in the number of spells per minute you can cast. Provided you manage your energy.

arcady · Nov 20, 2007, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by nugzta

For the record, ranger does better interrupting than mesmer. The mesmer might have more faster/accurate interruption so their interrupt relies on reflex. While ranger has slower interruption but real rangers (not barrage nublets) do their interrupt by prediction and time calculation. This is because ranger interrupts are more spammable and almost cost nothing thanks to expertise.

All you've really said is that you think ranger is better than mesmer because you know how to play ranger better than you do mesmer.

That's fairly subjective.

nugzta · Nov 20, 2007, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkdreamr

1: Yes. It's also cheaper, recharges faster, and is nonelite. SS only shines in groups of 3 or more with a tank to hold them in place.

2: Really? Do you know the attack speed of melee enemies in HM? And you know how much empathy does per hit? And you realize that empathy is fire-and-forget, and can be put on multiple targets?

3: BHA, another elite. What if the arrow misses? I still think mesmer shutdown is more reliable.

All 3 of these things can be done by a mesmer on one skill bar. Believe it or not.

So does mesmer have better elite than SS or BHA in pve perspective?

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcady

All you've really said is that you think ranger is better than mesmer because you know how to play ranger better than you do mesmer.

That's fairly subjective.

Nope my favourite classes are both ranger and mesmer. I primarily use ranger on both pve and pvp but mesmer only in pvp.

glountz · Nov 20, 2007, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctb

His point is that a mesmer is superior to a ranger in interrupting, and he's right. Simple math: a 1/4 or 1/8 second cast time with an instantaneous hit on the target is objectively superior the time it takes to notch and fly an arrow, even with a speed increase. The mesmer can be dedicated to interrupting, the Ranger, not so much.

Seriously, I will be harsh, but stop saying BS. Rangers need only one skill to interrupt: Broad head arrow. You want mass interrupt? Broad head arrow + epidemic + volley or pals' AoE. BHA outperform completely, I said COMPLETELY, mesmer's interrupts in PVE, by far. EDIT for Darkdreamer (since you're not understanding): Daze is never removed, mobs never strafe to avoid the arrow, it can be spread, and it ownz increased fast cast in HM.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctb

Like most other things the Ranger does, he does it best as a support character. He can interrupt, he can tank, he can spike, and he can degen, but all those things can be done better by other classes that can effectively dedicate themselves to those specializations. The Ranger rounds out the team by playing that support role and spreading his skills over a wider range of functions, which is the whole point of the Ranger.

Unbacked generalities. Rangers will deal more AoE than mesmers thanks to volley-Splinter weapon, will deal more damage overall, can spread more degen through conditions, can interrupt better than a mesmer through BHA and daze. And I didn't mention traps and odd builds like touchs to own particular mobs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctb

Yeah, it sucks how those mesmers really reduce your survivability. And don't do any damage. I don't mean this personally, but you're obviously someone who believes in grouping, tanking, nuking. you mention AoE necro hexes, spiteful spirit, and the need for DPS, not spike. yeah, that's steamrolling, but it's slow steamrolling. Well I'm telling you that I find it just as easy to spike the healers and let the rest of the enemies die to empathy/degen/the rest of my party. Of course you need survivability and healing, but with a mesmer around I find that my survivability goes up significantly.

I give up. You'll have to back your claims up. I have a PVE mesmer you know? And the fact is that it doesn't deals as much damage as a my Dlasher, doesn't protect as much as my Dslasher or my paragon or my monk, does not shutdown like my BHA ranger, etc... When mobs are so silly they don't know how to remove daze (when they have daze removal, something 5% of monk mobs might have), there is no need to bring an interrupt mesmer. When I cast Backfire on a caster mob, of course I deal damage (and yet if the mob decides to cast and not to wand), but I don't shutdown. When I put daze on a mob caster, of course I deal damage, but in addition, I shutdown. Don't know what to say more. E-denial is completely ineffective in PVE and especially HM, interrupts is hasardous in HM since cast times are so fast, and mesmer's shutdown is too often one-strike shutdown (like Shame). Even their enchant removal is subpar to necro's one when talking PVE, who can remove bunchs of enchants like mad, powered by mob's death energy engine.
I would really like something done about the mesmer, but that is the PVE mob design which is the issue, with infinite energy, unsynergised builds so they don't remove hexes or conditions (especially daze or blind, that you can spread-and-forget), and have no real problematic enchants/key spell/skill to shutdown.

Yichi · Nov 20, 2007, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkdreamr

1: Yes. It's also cheaper, recharges faster, and is nonelite. SS only shines in groups of 3 or more with a tank to hold them in place.

SS can be very useful in groups of less than three that can do more than empathy ever could. For instance SS > caster groups. Empathy gives them a purple arrow....

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkdreamr

2: Really? Do you know the attack speed of melee enemies in HM? And you know how much empathy does per hit? And you realize that empathy is fire-and-forget, and can be put on multiple targets?

Or you realize that SS on a necro can outdamage empathy when throwing it on multiple targets because the damage is AoE damage....

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkdreamr

3: BHA, another elite. What if the arrow misses? I still think mesmer shutdown is more reliable.

Stop using longbow/flatbows for a BHA ranger... Shortbows r imba for this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkdreamr

All 3 of these things can be done by a mesmer on one skill bar. Believe it or not.

Really? When did mesmers get an easy, reliable daze skill....

Vinraith · Nov 20, 2007, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkdreamr

Yes it is. Actually what I like about fast casting in pve is mantra of recovery, which (even after the nerf) is a huge increase in the number of spells per minute you can cast. Provided you manage your energy.

Good point, fast casting does have some very nice linked skills.

Chicken Ftw · Nov 20, 2007, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Meh. Trying to convince people mesmers aren't an optimal class for PvE is like trying to convince Xbox fanboys that Halo 3 isn't the best game ever made. Might as well quit while you're ahead.

Painbringer · Nov 20, 2007, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by nugzta

So does mesmer have better elite than SS or BHA in pve perspective?

Nope my favourite classes are both ranger and mesmer. I primarily use ranger on both pve and pvp but mesmer only in pvp.

[skill]Signet Of Illusions[/skill] is the Most powerful PVE skill in the game. What other skill lets you be any caster class in the game as much as this does. Not to mention the ability to spam maxed PVE only skills.

Yichi · Nov 20, 2007, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chicken Ftw

Meh. Trying to convince people mesmers aren't an optimal class for PvE is like trying to convince Xbox fanboys that Halo 3 isn't the best game ever made. Might as well quit while you're ahead.

Mesmers, with the right build and a skillful person playing them are a blessing to PvE. I'll argue with anyone that a mesmer can be worth their weight in gold if they are any decent at playign the class and know how to make a useful skillbar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinraith

Good point, fast casting does have some very nice linked skills.

a lot more than soul reaping has.... or energy storage for that matter...

Vinraith · Nov 20, 2007, 06:14 PM // 18:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by MistressYichi

a lot more than soul reaping has.... or energy storage for that matter...

Well, everything has more linked skills than SR, which is as it should be.

Chicken Ftw · Nov 20, 2007, 06:14 PM // 18:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by MistressYichi

Mesmers, with the right build and a skillful person playing them are a blessing to PvE. I'll argue with anyone that a mesmer can be worth their weight in gold if they are any decent at playign the class and know how to make a useful skillbar.

Of course, I'm not saying they're bad by any stretch of the imagination. Just saying their roles are pretty limited, in that other classes perform most of the tasks you want done in PvE more efficiently.

Antheus · Nov 20, 2007, 06:14 PM // 18:14

Quote:

Hex removal isn't an argument for mesmers over necromancers.

I've said before - the classes I bring for HM are necros *and* mesmers. Shutdown and damage.

I don't use eles, except for warders, since I've found their damage to be lacking.

I prefer to use a well rounded build, which includes shutdown, along with all other roles. That includes mesmers.

Quote:

I'd rather bring Expel Hexes or Mantra of Recovery

But I do. This is why two mesmers. One has expel or recover, other has powerblock, depending on area, I might use a different elite.

Quote:

Empathy? Pff. SS cleans the floor with Empathy

SS stacks with empathy, either intentionally, or due to confusion. Unlike 4 SF eles, which complement each other, necros hurt from overlapping skills.

Diversion is also very helpful to have around. Especially for dungeons. Mistrust reduces party damage.

To each their own. Majority of players in GW also claims that you need obsidian flesh tank, SF nukers and a bonder for hard areas. I play with team builds. There, no class is evaluated independently, and no skill is used on its own. And for HM, I've found mesmers a valuable addition in the synergetic team builds that I use.

Quote:

Trying to convince people mesmers aren't an optimal class for PvE is like trying to convince Xbox fanboys that Halo 3 isn't the best game ever made. Might as well quit while you're ahead.

Yes, but you only play solo in pre-searing pre-searing.

Everywhere else, it comes to team build. Some team structures make good use of mesmers. Others don't. Arguing about class effectiveness without considering the team and area they are used in is just like arguing that MM is worst class ever since it sucks in Ring of Fire.

"One build to vanquish them all" will be sub-par for all areas. The most effective build will be the one tailored for the area you're in. In many, such build can include mesmers.

Racthoh · Nov 20, 2007, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

GW:EN is full of mobs with hex removal.

Lifeweaver have Divert Hexes, Krait Devouss have Cure Hex. That's about it. GW:EN is full of enemies with physical hate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcady

As a player of two mesmers, and someone who brings gwen along regularly with my other toons - Mesmer is -the- most powerful class in PvE.

Flat out it outperforms everything else.

I am having a very, very, very hard time believing that. Skills, numbers, something to back up this claim? Everything I know a mesmer is capable of doing, I know of another profession that can do the job much better. Mesmer's don't have AoE weakness, capable of inflicting daze, doing more single target damage than a warrior (unless maybe that warrior is heavily shut down), blowing up mobs with AoE, providing mass party buffs, or keeping the party alive.

When I do have a mesmer, it's usually stripping enchantments or cleaning hexes so the physicals can kill stuff. But really I can get by without it.

Antheus · Nov 20, 2007, 06:33 PM // 18:33

Quote:

Lifeweaver have Divert Hexes, Krait Devouss have Cure Hex. That's about it. GW:EN is full of enemies with physical hate.

Destroyers of thoughts have expel hexes. There might an odd removal here and there.

Quote:

GW:EN is full of enemies with physical hate.

Definitely.

My anti-melee lineup consists of SS, IP, enfeebling blood, ward against KD and melee, Aegis, After this is up, I ignore melee, since it's harmless. This is less than two skill bars.

Then comes the problem of casters.

NPC healers are annoying. Some can be dazed, there's also shivers, diversion, backfire (if no hex removal, AI is stupid enough to lose plenty of health), knockdowns, enchant removal, interrupts, whatever works best for given area. Again, those are spread out between several party members.

But for everything I avoid strong slowdown tactics. I don't use snares - they keep melee from attacking. I don't use MS or much of AoE. Scattered mobs aren't attacking and hurting themselves.

My general approach is always to let mobs attack as much and as often as possible, but do as little damage as possible. But for the few that can really hurt entire party, I bring shutdown, spread between several party members, often including mesmers.

Ctb · Nov 20, 2007, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Quote:

You want mass interrupt? Broad head arrow + epidemic + volley or pals' AoE

This is patent nonsense. BHA is slower than a regular arrow. Now you're talking 1/2 the speed of an attack that was already slower than the mesmer. Plus, you're just interrupting randomly. And you're relying on a skill that requires casters to be all bunched up to work meaningfully. What do you do if they aren't bunched together, kite them around until they are?

Sorry, that's a terrible retort. The mesmer's interrupts are still much faster. If you know what you're doing, you don't need to just fire off interrupts all over the place to be effective which leaves the mesmer open to spread all sorts of other pain.

Just because it WORKS doesn't mean it's BETTER. A mesmer that's not just wildly spamming things can intelligently pick apart an entire enemy team and spread enough pain to allow a group to roll right through just about anything without too much sweat.

Quote:

Rangers will deal more AoE than mesmers

Since mesmers arent very good at doing AoE damage...

[quote]can spread more degen through conditions[/qutoe]
I think there are some necros and sins out there with certain secondaries which may like to have a word with you....

Quote:

Don't know what to say more.

I know what to say. Most of what you posted there suggests to me that you just don't understand how to manage hexes, otherwise you wouldn't be confused about the mesmer's ability to do damage while keeping enemy casters at bay.

Like I said above: your build may WORK, but that certainly doesn't mean it's BETTER. You're not really doing anything except keeping the casters at bay. The mesmer can do that AND spread meaningful problems out through the rest of the group at the same time. A properly placed mesmer who knows what he's doing can at times shut a whole group down to the point that you're practically wailing away at helpless dummies.

DDL · Nov 20, 2007, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctb

This is patent nonsense. BHA is slower than a regular arrow. Now you're talking 1/2 the speed of an attack that was already slower than the mesmer.

BHA isn't exactly an interrupt, though: it's a pre-emptive ranged attack that causes dazed, making EVERYTHING an interrupt from thence onward.

And with 12 marksmanship, it recharges faster than the dazed expires, allowing indefinite caster shutdown without ever needing to do a 'proper' interrupt.

So it should really only be compared to other skills that inflict dazed, rather than other interrupts.